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Traditional Grip - Both Hands?

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TTNW	Traditional Grip - Both Hands?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 10 (10/26/09 06:28:23) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None A question for traditional grip players. I am not wanting to start a discussion as to the virtues of traditional grip vs. matched grip. I play matched grip and so I am relying on you traditional grip players to give me, as best you can, an unbiased answer. Whether you play both grips or prefer traditional grip, why is it that no one uses traditional grip for both hands? My understanding of the history of traditional grip is that it was born out of necessity from playing marching snares that were slung in front of you. Due to the angle of the snare, it was easier to play (right handed) with an unmatched grip, left hand traditional grip. Then with the evolution of the drumset this became the adopted style and then preferred style. Turn of the century through the 40's. For those that prefer and perhaps also espouse more benefits to the traditional grip in drumset playing, would it not make sense to also play with the right hand grip in this manner? Especially for those that claim they have more power, dexterity, etc.. I promise I am not trying to bait an argument, nor is this a loaded question. I believe that a drummer should use the grip that works best for them. I been watching drummers for thirty years and I've never seen one play this way. If anyone has please let me know as I am very curious to see this in action. If you're a drummer that believes that this typical left hand traditional grip is superior then why wouldn't you adopt it for the other hand? It seems logical that you could set your kit up to accommodate this two handed traditional grip and reap even further benefits. I read the Ben Sesar (drummer for Brad Paisley) article in a magazine on how and why he switched from matched to traditional after 30 years of playing and yet his right hand grip didn't get mentioned. __________________ Philippe Jenney - TTNW
RickK		#1	[-]
Posts: 837 (10/26/09 06:50:32) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Philippe, That is an interesting question and that thought has crossed my mind before. I know that my kids and even relatives kids seem to gravitate toward a traditional grip and even though they might be right handed, put the right hand in traditional style. For me I started left hand traditional and the switched to matched grip...right now I like to switch between both depending on the style and volume I need when I play ... traditional grip is more comfortable but I am lacking the control. I am curious to see what answers you get here. rick
psyched	Would it be called goofy-handed? :D	#2	[-]
Posts: 177 (10/26/09 08:18:46) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	This is an interesting question... I think it all stems from the way drumsets have been designed. Since marching drums gave us "traditional" grip, which as you pointed out was simply a matter of being able to play the thing while it hung off the body, so were the first drumsets were oriented to facilitate playing in this grip, and it more or less became the standard configuration (and that's why amba's set-up isn't more common). In my opinion, traditional grip works very well when holding the stick in front of the body--to move the hand too much to the side, it requires either a change in posture or a switch to matched grip to compensate for the angle that the arm needs to be in to accomplish a full stroke. Matched grip in the right hand may also be a matter of reach, since in traditional grip the hand is forward from the fulcrum of the stick... not so much an issue when playing things that are close, but to reach for a ride cymbal or a trap tray on the bass drum it makes more sense to hold the stick with the hand behind the fulcrum (e.g., matched grip in the right hand). Also, when you think about the way the arm has to move to play the ride cymbal, French grip makes a whole lot more sense since it lets the arm relax and strokes come mostly from the fingers/elbow (and if you look at a lot of drummers, even those who mainly espouse German/American grip, almost everyone plays a ride cymbal with French grip). If holding the right stick in traditional grip, it doesn't make ergonomic sense, since traditional grip requires more of the turning of the forearm which is harder to do with the arm extended, and the shoulder would have to prop up the arm to reach those pieces of the kit. In other words, it's more work to use traditional grip in the right hand compared to playing matched. Personally, I switch back and forth between traditional and matched, but mostly play matched. Sure, there are plenty of people who make traditional grip work like nobody's business (Jojo Mayer, Vinnie, Weckl, etc.), but I think traditional grip tends to box-in the range of motion of the left hand whereas matched allows easier adjustment of technique (German/American/French grip, finger/wrist strokes, etc.) depending on what you want to hit and where it is in relation to your center of balance. Traditional grip definitely has its strengths, but I always feel like the right hand sometimes has to make up for the limited range of the left... and I think one of the strengths of traditional grip is that the hands are mismatched, so the delicacy of the hand being under the stick and ahead of the fulcrum is offset by the right hand having an opposite orientation to the stick. That said, I think matched is more flexible. Not that the things that can be done in matched can't be done in traditional, but I think matched is often more efficient and allows more movement without sacrificing posture and balance. I've never seen anyone play with both hands in traditional grip... have seen a drummer in NOLA play rightie with the hands and leftie with the feet, but that's probably the oddest (not to mention a great way to prevent people from trying to sit in). That's my two cents. I could be wrong.
TTNW		#3	[-]
Posts: 12 (10/27/09 06:16:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I suppose one thing I didn't consider in all this is that in most styles of music each hand plays a different role. Ride playing with the right hand is different in nature than comping on the snare with the left. I suppose that I'm starting to form the belief that there are probably very few drummers out there that think that traditional grip is superior to matched, they just prefer it or it benefits their playing. Maybe those that do believe that it is superior are trying to justify their preference. Whatever works. I still want to find the double trad grip drummer who's been shedding undiscovered in Greenland and is so awesome that it throws gasoline on the fire of the "matched vs traditional grip" debate. Philippe Jenney - TTNW
debbie		#4	[-]
Posts: 368 (11/05/09 17:45:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	howdy- i have tried doing it [playing double-traditional] because i was always a big proponent of traditional grip. but to my mind it's a pointless exercise. at the end of the day, as you said, you are playing different things on different parts of the kit. playing traditional on the ride cymbal, say, just makes no ergonomic sense. traditional isn't a superior grip, it's just a different grip. i sometimes default to it when [pretending to] play jazz, but that's coz it's a weaker grip in many ways, and thus allows me to play softer without really thinking too much about dynamics. yes, there are the vinnies of the world who have amazingly powerful trad grip, but i think that's the exception. my newest teacher has 'converted' me to matched, and in general, i am much happier using it. for one thing, i get more power. for another, i hurt less. i was looking at pics of vinnie and there is something a little unnatural about matched. your shoulders don't really stay even, unless you reposition the snare drum to compensate for that height difference. that can't be good on the body over the long haul. i think it's good to know both grips and use what makes sense, but playing trad on the right doesn't quite make sense to me. it's more work and doesn't really lend itself to the same situation as playing it on an angled snare drum. i think if it was found to be the superior or preferred grip all-around on the right hand, people would've adopted it by now. for me, i try to choose the path of least resistance, and right now, matched does the job. however, i still like traditional. i like that you can do 'bouncy' stuff with it. but you can also learn to do that with matched. it's just a question of practicing and applying it and using different digits and muscles.
Scott Grant		#5	[-]
Posts: 366 (11/05/09 22:14:35) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I saw a latin guy in school, (can't remember his name), that played a right handed kit with his trad grip in the right hand and match in the left. He was a monster to boot.
aaroncushing		#6	[-]
Posts: 971 (11/06/09 05:10:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	This past Sunday I found myself with a stick in my right hand in some sort of ba$tardized traditional grip. Actually, it was one of those combo stick dealy-whackers: a stick on one end, and a felt mallet on the other. I can't remember what I was doing, but I guess it had something to do with some cymbal swells, and trying to keep some time on the ride as well. I DO remember thinking about this thread for a second, before banishing the thought and concentrating again on what I was up to.
RickK		#7	[-]
Posts: 856 (11/06/09 05:17:30) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Danny Seraphine is big on the traditional grip, he basically said we owe it to those who have gone before us...he also encouraged teachers to start teaching their students trad grip...(The Chicago Drum Show)
CrusherDestroyer		#8	[-]
Posts: 317 (11/06/09 10:49:57) Senior Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Scott Grant wrote: I saw a latin guy in school, (can't remember his name), that played a right handed kit with his trad grip in the right hand and match in the left. He was a monster to boot. Lenny White played like that. Whoever sees clearly what's diseased in himself begins to gallop on the Way. -- Rumi you just watch and listen and think and decide. then you test it out. -- Deb
debbie		#9	[-]
Posts: 371 (11/06/09 11:17:19) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	i made a mistake when i said "i was looking at pics of vinnie and there is something a little unnatural about matched." i meant to say traditional. and i only meant it in the ergonomic sense [and more granularly, in a 'power playing' sense]. one thing i suppose we should specify is if a player is right or left handed. i could see where a lefty would play trad with the right hand and ride with their left. but for purposes of the discussion, i wasn't referring to that. at the end of the day, i like both grips, just don't see myself playing trad with both hands for practical, ergonomic reasons. but i'm sure there are people who could do it and do it well. similar discussions come up in ballet with respect to what's called turnout, which is how one rotates one's hip sockets to affect a certain 'line' in the body and movement toward other positions. the french and russians brought a very exaggerated turnout to the table, which looks positively beautiful, but is hard to master and can cause pain. plus you wind up with 17-year old girls getting hip replacements. it's a very unnatural technique, but it was the standard for years. the americans brought in a modified technique which is a bit easier on the body but affords you greater leg height on kicks, arabesques and such, so a certain athleticism got introduced into ballet. dance folk have been arguing about the merits of both turnouts for years, but the reality is american dancers have longer careers because their bones don't deteriorate as rapidly. dance is incredibly hard on the body. that's kinda how i see it with drums. it's vital that we preserve our bodies, so we should do everything possible to keep our movements as fluid and tension-free as possible. i haven't mastered this, but am working on getting better at it.
TTNW	Why Some Players Do What They Do	#10	[-]
Posts: 30 (11/07/09 08:25:21) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I agree with the ergonomic reasons for not playing both hands with a traditional grip. Then I was watching some video of Keith Carlock. He's got all his drums (snare and toms) pitched at a forward angle. It got me to thinking that while that setup probably facilitates his left hand playing very well, it would also do the same for his right hand. If anyone would reap a benefit from two handed traditional grip playing it would be him. I have watched a bunch of Carlock, Weckl, Donati and Thomas Lang clips on YouTube and out of all of the aforementioned, only Lang plays a significant amount of left hand hits on right side cymbals. It's almost as if their preference for traditional grip is stronger than any ergonomic limitations to cymbal playing. Then I watched some Vinnie and an old Cozy Powell solo and realized that they could have held their sticks like they were throwing a knuckle ball and they could still play well. I guess it's just interesting to see the different conventions. Philippe Jenney - TTNW
Scott Grant	Crusher Wrote	#11	[-]
Posts: 370 (11/07/09 11:45:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Lenny White played like that. This cat played his ride with his trad hand and 2&4 with matched. It was the weirdest most uncompfortable thing to watch, but he was as good as most of the teachers.
debbie		#12	[-]
Posts: 380 (11/09/09 13:27:25) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	if any of you have ever seen ray levier play, you can see where discussions of technique start to fall out the window [not that i'm anti technique at all; just making a point]. ray was burned over 90% of his body as a kid and as a result basically has no digits. he duct-tapes his sticks to his hands and uses the levier technique : ) he's an incredibly sensitive player who can rock out and jazz out and still show a lot of dynamic control. i find him very inspiring. here he is being loud: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh55qpiliho
Scott Grant		#13	[-]
Posts: 376 (11/09/09 22:40:43) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I think I posted that in the youtube saction a month or so ago. I'll go look
Scott Grant		#14	[-]
Posts: 377 (11/09/09 22:48:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Nope here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh55qpiliho And another Dan Caro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVvC1bGe1Xc Last Edited By: Scott Grant 11/10/09 09:06:21. Edited 2 times.

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Traditional Grip - Both Hands?

Traditional Grip - Both Hands?

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