three questions about counting

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CrusherDestroyer	three questions about counting	Lead	[-]
Posts: 260 (09/12/09 20:42:45) Senior Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None 1. do you count out loud during practice, and when (how much)? 2. did your teacher ever tell you to? 3. if you are a teacher, do you tell your students to? i just started doing it this last week, and it really screws up my breathing, so i end up just mouthing the numbers. anyway, i've been really mulling over billy's concept of mechanisms. i've never applied it. my problem with it has been that if it is not metronomic and consistent, then it won't work for me. i'm a heel down player and i think that heel mechanisms are inherently inconsistent, because for a heel down player, there would be way too many times when a pulse would coincide with a (heel down) stroke, so it's not ideal for me to use heel mechanisms. as far as other silent appendages, that seems to leave only the torso and head, and i don't want to use like a dancing or head bopping sort of mechanism because of the possibility of back and neck problems. anyway, i think that mouthing numbers or subdivisions at a reasonable rate is the most ideal mechanism in terms of metronomic reliability, silence of execution, and minimum physical stress. started as questions and ended up being a rant. anyway, what do you guys think about using verbal counting as a mechanism? Whoever sees clearly what's diseased in himself begins to gallop on the Way.
RickK		#1	[-]
Posts: 779 (09/12/09 20:49:01) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	my last lesson with Paul Wertico ended with him telling me I have to count every note outloud until I can "Earn Not To"...I don't like counting and counting 16th notes outloud gets tiring quickly but I need to do it...I was rushing my fills. rick
fudalen55		#2	[-]
Posts: 59 (09/12/09 23:14:02) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hey Crusher, I have incorperated the bass drum heel mechanism into my playing over the last couple of months . It was tricky as I am also mostly a heel down player and the beater would hit the BD head at times , so I just had to mess with it. The feel of it is very simular to the HH rocking motion . the only difference being is that at times there are more BD strokes before the heel hits . Now it is a part of my playing (I don't have to think about it as much) I can also see how counting 16ths can get your time together . For me I would not do that when I am at a gig . But the cats from India are always counting out loud. I have started makeing a sound in my mouth on one 16th note (for example the e of 3) Just like Billys dvd. I have got to say that his mechanisms are not easy but they are musical and I am an old fart. Louie
Jeff Halpern		#3	[-]
Posts: 670 (09/13/09 00:57:44) Senior Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	1. do you count out loud during practice, and when (how much)? 2. did your teacher ever tell you to? 3. if you are a teacher, do you tell your students to? question one: I only count out loud when I'm trying to learn some new rhythmical pattern. That's so I can understand where each beat is landing and to set my muscle memory. question two: Yes question three: I do tell my students to count out loud, at least until they learn how to "feel" it and get their muscle memory set in for whatever I'm having them do. I do like the quote by Paul Wertico - " I have to count every note out loud until I can "Earn Not To"...that's good! ;-)
stixwallah		#4	[-]
Posts: 243 (09/13/09 04:21:09) Regular Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	1. do you count out loud during practice, and when (how much)? Only when I am first establishing a "relationship" with new and difficult material. I find I am pretty comfortable knowing where the groove is without counting everything out loud. I am very used to playing with a metronome and practice regularly with one (though not as much as I should). After watching Big Time, I learned how to tap my left heel and it has had a hugely positive effect on my timekeeping and my mental wellbeing while playing. I started learning to do the mouth clicky thing too but it was sooooo difficult I lost patience. I am trying to get myself to go back and practice the mouth and the right foot mechanisms too. 2. did your teacher ever tell you to? Yes. When I started out, I counted everything. 3. if you are a teacher, do you tell your students to? Yes. I insist my students count all the exercises they are learning out loud. Mouthing it or just thinking the count doesn't seem to be as effective. When I start working on playing grooves to music I make them count out loud until they start to find a pocket. www.joethedrummer.co.uk
haddriggl	another thing to consider....	#5	[-]
Posts: 640 (09/13/09 04:42:34) Senior Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I used to count out loud a while back because my teacher told me to. Now I don't do this anymore, I prefer to breathe in time and only think the numbers, if at all. As long as I always know and feel where the one is, everything else falls into place nicely. I do apply the heel-thing whenever possible with the left foot and sometimes with the right one as well. I often sing background sometimes leadvocals while drumming, so counting wouldn't work anyway. But I found out that singing/mumbling/whispering the lyrics is a great way to stay in time, it's a lot more fun than just counting and lets you play a lot more song-serving (if this word actually exists). If there's no lyrics for whatever you're playing, then make some up or at least come up with some melody you can sing or hum along. To me this works a lot better than throwing out numbers, which I find way too technical. And as soon as I think technical instead of musical, I'm in trouble... www.audiot.eu
DrumWild		#6	[-]
Posts: 136 (09/13/09 05:25:17) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	1. I would count out loud when learning something new, in the early days. 2. My first teacher had me count out loud. It was never mentioned by other instructors. 3. When I'm teaching someone, I will stress the importance of counting out loud if it appears that they cannot locate and lock onto the "1." DrumWild http://www.drumwild.com
CrusherDestroyer		#7	[-]
Posts: 263 (09/13/09 13:57:16) Senior Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	well, i first started thinking about counting after i read http://www.vicfirth.com/e...es/merante_counting.html this article last week. i have been searching for a mechanism that i could use on every occurrence of a given subdivision that would also not cause an audible sound or an undue physical stress. i'm gonna go with counting for a while and see how i like it. Whoever sees clearly what's diseased in himself begins to gallop on the Way.
debbie		#8	[-]
Posts: 314 (09/13/09 15:57:19) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	grrrrrrr. this thing is not making paragraphs..............crusher, how come you want a (counting) mechanism that is not audible? not being a wiseass, just wondering coz you mentioned: >>i think that heel mechanisms are inherently inconsistent, because for a heel down player, there would be way too many times when a pulse would coincide with a (heel down) stroke, so it's not ideal for me to use heel mechanisms.<< i might not be understanding, but i would think that simultaneity would be one reason why you would want to count--in part to help with 'body separation.' unless you were meaning using some heel movement as the counting mechanism itself. i don't count all the time, but i do count quite a bit until i feel something internally. today we did a lot of counting coz my teach is trying to get me to place my fills at different points, so i have to know exactly where i'm dropping things in until it gets baked-in. i think counting out loud is a really good discipline that keeps us honest and grounded and really helps us know what we're doing. also, it takes brainpower to count out loud and do something at the same time, which is good for drumming. my first teacher used to have me sing 'chip' for certain triplet exercises. that was also a kind of counting. so it's yes all around to your questions except i'm not a teacher. but if i was, i'd make students count.
billy ward		#9	[-]
Posts: 7909 (09/13/09 16:18:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Paul Werico is right - and if counting is hard, then playing in time is really going to be impossible IMO. this doesn't mean that, without counting, you can't play well enough for certain specific work - but there are times when your car is skidding and you are not sure if the brakes are OK. Counting helps. It is another fundamental skill meaning, once you have it, it is fundamental and you can do it automatically.
CrusherDestroyer		#10	[-]
Posts: 269 (09/13/09 20:19:58) Senior Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	debbie wrote: ..............crusher, how come you want a (counting) mechanism that is not audible? i want to limit the sound that i'm making to the music that i am playing. music consists of sounds only. i don't want to put in sounds that are not part of the expression. Whoever sees clearly what's diseased in himself begins to gallop on the Way.
DrumWild		#11	[-]
Posts: 138 (09/14/09 06:49:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	My metronome has flashing lights. DrumWild http://www.drumwild.com
billy ward		#12	[-]
Posts: 7911 (09/14/09 15:05:38) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Lots of drummers make noise when they play - lots of noise. It isn't necessary to playing well - but for many, it has been part of the package.
RickK	since we are talking about counting?	#13	[-]
Posts: 780 (09/14/09 18:34:22) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I have been practicing so much in the last few years and when I first started playing I always heard count out loud or use a metronome etc...I was counting every single note for a while. I stopped trying to count a while ago when I started reading out of books because it wasn't explained to me and probably confused me more than anything, I really didn't know how to read music (still don't unless it's from the easy piano books) or drum notation. what I am noticing now is since my teacher wants me to count every note out loud is that I seem to be only counting the hits on the drum instead of all the notes... i.e. - I was just practicing and it felt and sounded pretty good, but what happens is I go 1e&a2e&a3e&a4e&a as long as my hands are hitting something for each count then I can keep going...but if I start playing something that sounds better and I am not hitting something I don't say that note it sounds something like- 1 &2e 3 & 4 & 2 3e& 4e 1 2 & 3 4 & etc. probably a poor example of what I am trying to say and not sure if it makes any sense? my 1 usually ends up even with the metronome but I guess what I am trying to expalin is when I "SAY" a note I feel I have to hit something. which makes me not want to count out loud? but I will until I can get this down Lord willing. is this normal or just a me problem? rick
Scott Grant		#14	[-]
Posts: 332 (09/14/09 22:37:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Rickk Wrote I don't say that note it sounds something like- 1 &2e 3 & 4 & 2 3e& 4e 1 2 & 3 4 & etc. I find with my students that counting this way makes the student not give proper value to the spaces not being played. Whenever I got something new from Jim Blackley, he would make me count the grid out loud with the metronome at 40 for min. 2 weeks. It became like a meditation. After you internalize the grid he would make me sing the phrase. ( Do.Ah..VaDat.. Do.Ah )
curiousgeorge		#15	[-]
Posts: 150 (09/15/09 00:05:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Jeff Halpern wrote: 1. do you count out loud during practice, and when (how much)? 2. did your teacher ever tell you to? 3. if you are a teacher, do you tell your students to? question one: I only count out loud when I'm trying to learn some new rhythmical pattern. That's so I can understand where each beat is landing and to set my muscle memory. question two: Yes question three: I do tell my students to count out loud, at least until they learn how to "feel" it and get their muscle memory set in for whatever I'm having them do. I do like the quote by Paul Wertico - " I have to count every note out loud until I can "Earn Not To"...that's good! ;-) What he said, every word.
bryanmeyers		#16	[-]
Posts: 282 (09/20/09 15:11:52) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I was taught to count out loud. Under your breath was not acceptable. It was hard back then. I'm glad my teacher insisted. He said that it helped to develop one's internal clock. I have my students do the same. It helps one to not become defendant on the physical movements.I've seen my student play with squirrelly time while on counting or counting really soft. I 'll tell them to count load enough t be heard over there playing and their time immediately tightens up. Amazing! Don't confuse what I'm saying with being contrary to Billy's concept of mechanisms. In fact, I think is all related. Being able to use all 4 limbs and ones voice to reference time to our advantage. Now, when practicing or on the gig, I will use which ever helps get the job done. I've been working through some stuff from Benny Greb's new video. Great stuff. He has you play all of these permutations while saying, "chid", on 1,2,3,4. He explains why decide on that sound. Very interesting. Later, when going over odd meters he uses words and phrases. "Radio" for 3 note phrases, "University" for 5 and "Listen to the Radio" for seven. Anyhow, I think our voice is invaluable in our learning to harness time.
debbie		#17	[-]
Posts: 320 (09/27/09 05:26:25) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	the situation rick described is exactly why counting out loud is a good thing, imho. it lets you separate out what you're doing from what you should be doing and know your place in time. after a while it becomes more internal and you can focus on only certain counts. i always used to mess up my count when i'd have to say 'seven' out loud. inevitably, the word would turn into 2 hits instead of one because it's two syllables, so it's easy to get confused. stuff like that is another reason why counting helps.
llabarge		#18	[-]
Posts: 424 (09/28/09 17:51:26) Senior Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Since I've been playin with the guys from India, I've been counting using the bols when I practice. It helps a lot. I count in english (1e+a2e+a) when I play though. I make my studdnts count out loud ("COUNT! COUNT LIKE A MARINE!)

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three questions about counting

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