The Importance of Good Technique

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curiousgeorge	MRIs	#21	[-]
Posts: 142 (09/12/09 12:40:03) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	"about every ten years I do an MRI through a legit neurologist " The study is on legit, qualified doctors. It turns out that there are lots and lots of stuff that look reaaaalllllly bad in MRIs that are just no problem. The only spine that does not have something that looks like a slipped or herniated disc under an MRI is an 18 year old's spine. Just about everyone else has things that look bad, but just aren't the cause of the pain. Thats the results of a couple of ginormous studies. In regards to the PM, if there is a specific injury, the whole study is off - its just not what they were looking at. But in cases where the pain appears without a clear cause, then surprisingly the MRIs lead Doctors to the wrong conclusion.
curiousgeorge		#22	[-]
Posts: 143 (09/12/09 13:03:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	stixwallah wrote: This clip from Mr Gruber shows him demonstrating a stroke where he moves his forearm up and down and rotates his wrist so that at the top of the stroke his thumbnail appears to be pointing outwards and at the bottom of the stroke it is pointing inwards. http://www.drummerworld.c...inic/Freddie_Gruber.html Is this something? This is exactly the clip I was looking for. He is not rotating his wrist. In fact, very little rotation is available to you at your wrist ... try it. Try grabbing your forearm and turning your wrist - it won't move more than an inch or so. The wrist is a lot like the bendy part of a bend straw. It moves side to side and up + down, but doesn't twist. The twisting Gruber is doing is all done @ the elbow. The part when he says "I'm gonna drop 'em, naturally" ... he'd never play in that position, but really he is demonstrating how to access motion @ the elbow for Moeller. (again, Moeller is primarily elbow, with the wrists following) IMHO, the only reason his wrist is as bent as it is at that moment is that he's thinking too much about what he's doing. The rest of it is great. He finishes his strokes ina neutral wrist position (i.e. flat) Its just that one moment he doesn't do it. The part he finishes up with is also spot on. There are no straight lines. We aren't GI Joe dolls. Thats really not how we are built. Unfortunately, that is one of the places that we as kids get a lot of the ideas about how the body is built. The straight line in our forearms rusn from the tip of the elbow (which forms part of the hinge joint) to just inside the pinky finger. The thumb is totally off-axis, which is why it is the strongest finger. The pinky is smaller not because it is useless, but because it is in line with the arm bones, meaning it can access the power from the arm. The farther away from the axis, the stronger the fingers have to be. 1 more thing about Gruber - the dude is ancient + still playing. He's doing something right. Mike Mangini's technique is perfectly fine, as long as stick heights remain low. If you try that at a high volume show, you end up doing what Weinberg Jr is doing. Watch Mangini play louder, though, and you'll see that he opens up. He adjusts his technique, as he should. Mainley + stixwallah: I'll address that in the video I'll do later.
curiousgeorge		#23	[-]
Posts: 144 (09/12/09 13:17:31) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Willy Bard wrote: Once again we have the not always comfortable combination of art and science. The demands we put on our bodies in order to play the drums doesn't always allow a completely stress-free experience. But it's only common sense to consider that the onset of pain during and/or after a performance indicates that something is wrong and should be addressed. Unfortunately many of us are willing to live with discomfort in order to play the way we want and some even view the subsequent injuries as bragging rights. I've always felt that your body is going to tell you when something is out of whack and you just have to be aware enough to hear the message and clever enough to do something about it before it turns into a lifelong struggle such as the one Phil Collins is dealing with. I watch that praying mantis sort of approach in the Gruber video and I'm shocked. That can't be right and if it isn't, why is being demonstrated in a drum video? On the contrary, science is not at all about shoving things into neat little boxes, although many of us do that! Rather, it is about finding what is really going on. If we undertsand what is really going on, we'll be able to use our bodies to maximum efficiency in order to create better art. Just look @ Michael Jordan "He makes it looks so easy" people always say ... the reason he makes it looks so easy is that he is using his body with maximum efficiency. Nothing is wasted, he just does exactly what he wasn't to do. To us it looks beautiful and graceful. Thats science. At least good science. Listening to your body is just good science. Its paying attention to the information available, and comparing it with what you thought you were getting. It it matches up your all set, but if it doesn't then you change what your are doing in order to get the result. Unfortunately, it is human nature to glaze over reality in favor of theories. Just to reiterate, that praying mantis thing will kill your wrists, but if you keep watching, Gruber doesn't actually play like that that. ohhhh - I know exactly what he was doing there. He was just dropping his wrists, with the elbows turned. This was demonstrating that the wrists follow the elbows (which they should) in natural, efficient, organic, pain free movement. (even with Gladstone i.e. Mangini technique - its just that with low stick heights the rotation @ the elbows is very very small. Its not that big even at big stick heights)
fudalen55		#24	[-]
Posts: 58 (09/12/09 17:24:21) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I have many injuries ( none of them caused by drumming ) But because my technique is good I can still play . Your sitting position as Billy explains on his video is very important. Joe Morello, Steve Smith and Jim Chapin as you know have great videos . Joe Morello explains the common sense of it. Any way I hope all is well .Louie
stixwallah		#25	[-]
Posts: 242 (09/13/09 03:45:34) Regular Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	billy ward wrote: I think it is simply about using common sense If you raise your wrist up right now over the keyboard, there is a place where it starts to feel tight. This is why we have elbows. The important thing being placed under the microscope today is not having your wrists fully extended. it will start to hurt even without drumsticks. Try the "Praying Mantis" position for an hour - even without sticks, it is simply uncomfortable. Ah! I think I am starting to understand (sometimes I feel a bit dense or find that overthinking is killing me ). I have now grokked what hyperextending means. That notwithstanding, I think I am getting the idea that Gladstone is good for the soft to moderate but isn't ideal for the heavier stuff where some radius-ulnar (said in a Jojo Mayer Germanic accent) rotation action is better. CuriousGeorge - we await your video with baited breath. www.joethedrummer.co.uk
debbie	grokked?	#26	[-]
Posts: 312 (09/13/09 13:52:01) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	what a neat word, stixwallah! the heck does it mean? this is a good thread. makes me very grateful for my teach, who has been really driving home the technique thing since day one. we just touched on this a bit more today. one thing we realized is that my technique shifts when going from the pad to the kit, which was causing my right hand to drag a bit and go all french-like. anyhow we analyzed that and my movement a bit more today, and overall, i am good, with some slight modifications [the main one being raising my floor tom higher]. i don't think gregg is too anal about this, but he really does have a very fluid playing style and we talk a lot about the movement involved when going around the kit. it's just something you have to remain aware of until it becomes a good muscle memory. i'm sad about the phil thing, but honestly, i thought he'd been scaling back on drumming for a while now. i just didn't know about the health factors driving it, and those are sad. i thought he just wasn't that into drumming anymore. but i adore his work on the brand x albums, and certainly love his voice. so it's not like we'll totally lose him. and hopefully he will get physical therapy to mitigate some of the pain or stiffness. but yah--can you imagine never drumming again? that is harsh. i understand lenny white is also having very bad problems from playing a certain way for a long time. the other day, i went for an outstanding massage. this dude pretty much healed an old drumming injury that was brought on by crap technique. i used to get really amped up while playing with the rock band and i'd smash the cymbals. also used to overpractice and do more smashing. i just love smashing cymbals. but i used to go at it like i was serving a tennis ball or something--just way over the top and unnecessarily forceful. that resulted in some supraspinitus something or other--some dangling participle looming under my shoulder/collar bone. doc said some bone was hanging down like a stalagtite. it hurt like a %%*!% and i could only raise my arm 30 degrees before wincing in agony. well i got physical therapy and that helped, but there was still some weird muscle trauma, and whenever someone would squeeze my shoulder, the whole arm and scapula would go into a bizarre spasm. well this new guy put that spasm to bed. it was awesome. he spent a good 50 minutes working the deep and long muscles on the side and back of my neck, then my pectoralis down to the back of my right rib. none of this felt particularly yummy; in fact much of it hurt, but i believe in therapeutic relief so i endured and just kept breathing deeply. when my body would spasm, he'd just grab those muscles and bear down harder and hold on til i felt something release. it was awesome and i haven't felt this open and strong in that area in almost 5 years. amazing what we put up with. so yah--i'm staying on the good technique bandwagon and satisfying myself with incremental gains. i'm too old to endure much injury.
curiousgeorge		#27	[-]
Posts: 145 (09/13/09 19:18:56) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	yikes! You broke your supraspinitus? thats a ridge on the scapula that muscles attach to. In other words, you hit the drums so hard you broke your arm. (the scapula is 100% part of the arm, even though its in the torso.) Your not supposed to do that! It wouldn't be the force with which you were playing so much as it is how you were (presumably) playing through the drums - hitting the drums hard to hit them hard instead of to make more sound. In other news, I filmed the vid this afternoon, but haven't had time to watch it yet, to see if you can see what I think you can see on it, or to edit it. My 4 year old son was running around the room being distracting while I was filming, so there will be at least 2 edits I'll have to make.
billy ward		#28	[-]
Posts: 7910 (09/13/09 20:21:57) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Grok - I first enjoyed that word in Clan Of The Cave Bear. good book at t he time. Grok works. And it's not as long as supraspinitus.
CrusherDestroyer		#29	[-]
Posts: 271 (09/13/09 20:31:12) Senior Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I'm pretty sure it comes from the Robert Heinlein book Stranger in a Strange Land. Whoever sees clearly what's diseased in himself begins to gallop on the Way.
stixwallah		#30	[-]
Posts: 246 (09/13/09 23:05:52) Regular Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	CrusherDestroyer wrote: I'm pretty sure it comes from the Robert Heinlein book Stranger in a Strange Land. Indeed. Sorry for using a silly word, the inner hippy wants attention methinks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok www.joethedrummer.co.uk
curiousgeorge		#31	[-]
Posts: 146 (09/13/09 23:32:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	aiaiiiiight ..... heres that video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiV1RmvF8ok The lighting wasn't the best, and you can hardly see the lines I drew on my arm, but hopefully you can kinda see what I'm talking about anyway. Also, everything 3rd word is 'uhhhhhhh', so sorry about that too. anyway, hopefully this vid makes uhhhhh, more sense than my, uhhhh, you know, textual ramblings.
CrusherDestroyer		#32	[-]
Posts: 273 (09/14/09 01:22:23) Senior Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	This video has been removed because it is too long. Regular YouTube videos must be 10 minutes or less. Whoever sees clearly what's diseased in himself begins to gallop on the Way.
Willy Bard		#33	[-]
Posts: 148 (09/14/09 07:37:22) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	curiousgeorge wrote: Willy Bard wrote: Once again we have the not always comfortable combination of art and science. The demands we put on our bodies in order to play the drums doesn't always allow a completely stress-free experience. But it's only common sense to consider that the onset of pain during and/or after a performance indicates that something is wrong and should be addressed. Unfortunately many of us are willing to live with discomfort in order to play the way we want and some even view the subsequent injuries as bragging rights. I've always felt that your body is going to tell you when something is out of whack and you just have to be aware enough to hear the message and clever enough to do something about it before it turns into a lifelong struggle such as the one Phil Collins is dealing with. I watch that praying mantis sort of approach in the Gruber video and I'm shocked. That can't be right and if it isn't, why is being demonstrated in a drum video? On the contrary, science is not at all about shoving things into neat little boxes, although many of us do that! Rather, it is about finding what is really going on. If we undertsand what is really going on, we'll be able to use our bodies to maximum efficiency in order to create better art. Just look @ Michael Jordan "He makes it looks so easy" people always say ... the reason he makes it looks so easy is that he is using his body with maximum efficiency. Nothing is wasted, he just does exactly what he wasn't to do. To us it looks beautiful and graceful. Thats science. At least good science. Listening to your body is just good science. Its paying attention to the information available, and comparing it with what you thought you were getting. It it matches up your all set, but if it doesn't then you change what your are doing in order to get the result. Unfortunately, it is human nature to glaze over reality in favor of theories. Just to reiterate, that praying mantis thing will kill your wrists, but if you keep watching, Gruber doesn't actually play like that that. ohhhh - I know exactly what he was doing there. He was just dropping his wrists, with the elbows turned. This was demonstrating that the wrists follow the elbows (which they should) in natural, efficient, organic, pain free movement. (even with Gladstone i.e. Mangini technique - its just that with low stick heights the rotation @ the elbows is very very small. Its not that big even at big stick heights) I guess my point was that there are endeavors we engage in that present physical challenges that may not be entirely mitigated even if discovered. The "science" of the human body and the "art" of playing drums don't always make ideal combinations especially as you pile on the miles. I'm hard-pressed to think of any other activity that involves so much repetitive motion, twisting and turning, impact stress, high-volume risks and sometimes performed in a very unhealthy environment. Minimizing those issues is certainly possible and wise but I doubt that any of us are the "perfect machine". I'm glad there is an awareness and some efforts to address the health of us barbarian drummers, but I think the risk of some long-term damage, however minor, will always be there. I've been much more aware of this whole subject for the past few years. After decades of apathy (and luckily no ill-effects) I've become much more in-tune with my body and paying attention to any hints that I've doing something wrong. My posture, throne height, drum and cymbal configurations have all been modified to reduce any discomfort or pain. Lately I've been working on a different grip fulcrum to reduce hand fatigue and stiffness and, finally, I've become much more pro-active with hearing protection. I've been experimenting with headphone/ear bud/ear muff combinations looking for my ideal combination of adequate monitoring and hearing protection. This has been a very interesting thread for me. Cool stuff!
curiousgeorge		#34	[-]
Posts: 147 (09/14/09 08:56:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	lol ... OK. I'll get to it later
debbie		#35	[-]
Posts: 317 (09/14/09 17:28:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	curious, no, i didn't break it, but i did something whack to it. i don't know if it was a bruise, mild dislocation or what have you, but it was impinged on some level and i had very little arm movement as a result. and yah, it was totally from playing like a salmon. i used to hit pretty hard [still kinda do, but not so animal like] but i went about it all wrong, and the prob with the cymbals was that i was hyperextending my shoulder, like pitchers often do, and that created the problem. i do hope we all stretch before and after playing, too. i just cannot exist without stretching. i get crappy and achey if i go more than a few days without.
curiousgeorge		#36	[-]
Posts: 148 (09/14/09 22:24:56) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	probably not hyperextending it - unless you were getting into Taiko drumming, drumset drumming typically stays well within the normal range of movement for the shoulder. It is super common to have tension accumulate around there and pinch the nerve (which is as big or bigger than your pinky finger right about there. If you were feeling a shooting pain, pins/needles, numbness, then thats prolly what it was. (The solution for that is better technique, massage + swimming. ) Just by way of talking about good technique, the collar bone / shoulder blade are part of the arm, attaching to the humerus (upper arm bone), then to the radius/unla (2 forearm bones), then to the 8 wrist bones(that for 3 joints) and then to the fingers. So when you hit something hard, releatedly, the shock waves roll up you arm untill they get to the spine, which doesn't roll. Thats really where the rock meets the hard place and the vibrations start to cause problems, if there is to much vibrating going on - which there will be if your arm is taking the impact instead of the drum.
curiousgeorge		#37	[-]
Posts: 149 (09/14/09 23:39:59) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Take 2! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXzicBJY0fc there are 2 parts. Last Edited By: Mainely Drummer 09/15/09 16:20:17. Edited 1 times.
CrusherDestroyer		#38	[-]
Posts: 280 (09/15/09 11:22:32) Senior Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	excellent videos, man. so much easier to tell and show than to tell or show. Whoever sees clearly what's diseased in himself begins to gallop on the Way.
CrusherDestroyer		#39	[-]
Posts: 282 (09/15/09 11:34:12) Senior Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	just watched the timewarp video that you mentioned. i had the same reaction as mike to the footage they showed of the head and cymbal after impact. even though i saw it, i don't truly believe it. Whoever sees clearly what's diseased in himself begins to gallop on the Way.
curiousgeorge		#40	[-]
Posts: 153 (09/15/09 12:17:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Thanks! The Time Warp video is a staple in my drum lessons these days. It underlines a truly important concept in good technique. Sound is moving air. The drum/cymbal makes sound because it vibrates. We make sound on the drum by hitting the drum to make the drum shake. Just understanding this concept alone will get you halfway to good technique. (and almost all the way to good tone!) BTW - they also have a cool one with Lars Ulrich. You can look around for variousslow motion cymabl/drum videos... it is interesting to see the different motions of cymbals with different sounds (the ZBT does not move the same way an A Custom does - naturally! its why they sound different)

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