The Importance of Good Technique

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curiousgeorge

The Importance of Good Technique

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Posts: 138

(09/10/09 11:46:39)

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http://www.mirror.co.uk/c...-injury-115875-21662312/

Phil Collins yesterday revealed he will never play the drums again because of a spine injury. The Genesis star says he can no longer even hold his drum sticks because sitting at a kit is too painful. Phil, 58, said: "I've got a condition that means I can't play any more. After playing drums for 50 years, I've had to stop. "Obviously I'm very sad about it. My vertebrae has been crushing my spinal cord because of the position I drum in. "It comes from years of playing. I can't even hold the sticks properly without it being painful. "I even used to tape the sticks to my hands to get through. But don't worry, I can still sing."

Its so sad that things things happen. It can be prevented with a little good information. Injury happens through outside damage (i.e. a knife), through disease or through misuse. If we understand the structure and function of the body, we will use it correctly, and we won't get the damage from using it incorrectly that Phil Collins had. And, we'll have the added bonus of playing faster, and with more nuance than otherwise. http://www.bodymap.org

curiousgeorge

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Posts: 139

(09/10/09 12:03:27)

Also, here is a train wreck in the making.

http://www.drumchannel.com/entertainment/63518.aspx

Jay Weinberg. Compare his technique to Bennie Rodgers, who has great form. Check out how often he hyperextends his wrist. Also check out where he says that he can barely get through a 4 hour show(about halfway in), and soaking his arms in ice water after the gigs. At his age I was doing some 5 hour shows without pain ... and my technique wasn't the greatest (slouching, et al)

Very sad to see, especially knowing his dad's troubles. Its not a genetic abnormality, its just bad technique. Sooooo correctable....

Last Edited By: curiousgeorge 09/10/09 12:05:49. Edited 1 times.

Mainely Drummer

Thanks..

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Posts: 3011

(09/10/09 16:44:48)

Senior Member

Thanks for the post george.

I am quite alarmed to hear about Phil's problems, despite all out focus on gear or chops or group dynamics, we are only as good as our bodies allow us to be.

Agreed if he is doing the ice water thing at age 18, he is really in need of (at minimum) grip adjustment.

Jay's arms do have quite a bit of a whipping motion happening, like an exaggerated Moeller.

bradkilpatrick

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Posts: 141

(09/10/09 17:24:26)

Senior Member

This news saddens me, as I have always had a soft spot for Phil's drumming. Genesis were a really important band.

As for Jay... his technique is definitely an issue of concern.

www.myspace.com/drumsuck
www.myspace.com/holyfuckremixes
www.hawksleyworkman.com/tour/

Last Edited By: bradkilpatrick 09/10/09 18:31:00. Edited 1 times.

stixwallah

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Posts: 238

(09/11/09 00:31:18)

Regular Member

>Check out how often he hyperextends his wrist.

Curious - can you explain what "hyperextending" the wrist means?

Sad about Phil, a great drummer.

www.joethedrummer.co.uk

Mainely Drummer

Good Question

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Posts: 3014

(09/11/09 06:09:16)

Senior Member

Curious - can you explain what "hyperextending" the wrist means?

Verb

1.

hyperextend - extend a joint beyond its normal range; "Don't hyperextend your elbow"

exsert, hold out, stretch forth, stretch out, put out, extend - thrust or extend out; "He held out his hand"; "point a finger"; "extend a hand"; "the bee exserted its sting"

billy ward

yep

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Posts: 7893

(09/11/09 21:27:26)

Many of you who know me personally or have perhaps read everything I've written know that my neck is an absolute mess. Any neurologist who sees MRIs of my neck simply hands over class one narcotics with a shake of the head ("I honestly can't imagine how much pain you are in...")
(narcotics disclaimer: for the last 6 years, I have been able to stay away from pain control pills due to my accupuncturist and my diligence.)

I'm able to play the drums because I play in a way that doesn't hurt me too much. it still takes it's toll, which I now know because I have not been playing and my neck pain has been less than usual, but this certainly will focus a soul upon playing correctly!!! this is why I act like such a freakin' know-it-all when it comes to setup and hand stuff. Of course, I don't know it all (at all!), but certainly I have a focus upon safe technique that many others do not have. One thing that is going for me is my inherent laziness.

stixwallah

Hyperextend my mind

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Posts: 239

(09/11/09 23:54:29)

Regular Member

I understand that hyperextending means too much extending but I wasn't sure exactly what I was looking at. So Jay there is allowing his wrists to whip back and forth too much wheras the other guy has more control and his wrists move through a smaller arc so to speak. Am I getting that right? I think I might be prone to some hyperextending myself. What would you guys suggest Jay should do?

www.joethedrummer.co.uk

CrusherDestroyer

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Posts: 258

(09/12/09 00:45:51)

Senior Member

in my opinion, it's an excess of vertical movement of the forearm, generated at the elbow, that is causing jay's wrists to describe such an exaggerated arch.

his stroke in general seems stylized and over the top, with basically too much motion in all parts of his body.

Whoever sees clearly what's diseased in himself begins to gallop on the Way.

CrusherDestroyer

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Posts: 259

(09/12/09 00:51:16)

Senior Member

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpzNfIT7Ciw

this is worth watching. Bennie rehearsing for Mariah.

Don't you wish your bass drum did that?

Whoever sees clearly what's diseased in himself begins to gallop on the Way.

Last Edited By: Mainely Drummer 09/12/09 06:33:48. Edited 2 times.

curiousgeorge

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Posts: 140

(09/12/09 03:37:28)

Exaggerated Moeller... watch it, then put yourself (slowly!) through that same motion. You will find that he is hyperextending his wrist my whipping entirely with his wrist. Full strokes with Moeller technique has more to do with rotation @ the elbows than @ the wrist.

Something that I didn't know until I took the "Everything a Musician Needs To Know About the Body" course (3 times, A each time, but still have more to learn! that got me interested enough to take Anatomy, with the cadavers) is that you have 2 joints in the elbow. One is a hinge joint, just like you find in a door. The other allows the radius to turn over the ulna (this is why we have 2 forearm bones!) so that if your palms are supinated (i.e. stretched out, facing the ceiling), the bones are parallel, but if they are pronated (i.e. facing the floor) then they are crossed.

Watch the Jim Chapin stuff or the Freddie Gruber stuff, then its pretty clear that is how he is moving. Its real hard to explain by typing, but super easy to explain by demonstrating. I should make a video + post it.

Anyway, Weinberg Jr is not accessing any of the rotational movement available to him @ the elbow, isolating the wrist so that the wrist has to do all the work. This is stressing out the wrist, and putting most of the work ontiny muscles that have to work extra hard to keep up (like walking on your hands instead of your feet) It just ain't natural. We aren't built that way.

"Its all in the wrist" is fine as long as the sticks don't come more than 6 inches off the drum head. Any more than that and we start to approach the physical limits of movement. This is no problem once, twice, or even a hundred times. But thousands of times a day and it'll start to fail.

"in my opinion, it's an excess of vertical movement of the forearm, generated at the elbow, that is causing jay's wrists to describe such an exaggerated arch. " Like I was explaining, it is a LACK of movement @ the elbow that is causing it.

Hyperextending means to stretch to far. A minor hyperextention is no big deal, a medium leads to a tear, a major hyperextention leads to a total rip.

I will post a video tomorrow, demo'ing bad technique and why it is bad, and good technique. PM me if I forget! Fire away all the questions, so I can try to answer all of them.

curiousgeorge

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Posts: 141

(09/12/09 04:05:09)

billy ward wrote:
Any neurologist who sees MRIs of my neck simply hands over class one narcotics with a shake of the head ("I honestly can't imagine how much pain you are in...")

This is one of the reasons why the AMA specifically recommends that MRI's *NEVER GET USED* to make those kinds of diagnoses. Some major major studies have found that MRI's are extremely hard to read, and that the use of MRIs almost always leads to longer rehabilitation times and unnecessary surgery. Not only that, but they ordered emergency surgery on a SHOCKING percentage of patients with no back problems whatsoever.

Its not that the Docs are trying to run up costs - the Docs really believe that they can read the MRI's accurately. However, evidence shows they just can't. When it comes to spinal issues *having to do with chronic pain*, MRI's are simply a red herring. If your Doc wants to do an MRI, get a new Doc. According to the AMA.

Unfortunately, nearly all Docs still order MRIs as the very first thing. !!! (BTW, by way of sourcing, I did a very quick web search and didn't find it, but I first read about this in the Jonas Lehr book "How We Decide")

billy ward

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Posts: 7900

(09/12/09 05:40:21)

for me, curious, about every ten years I do an MRI through a legit neurologist - just to see where things are at. And this keeps the insurance active in this regard as well. But I am doing acupuncture and other sports medicine stuff to stay cool. I plan on never having surgery!

Mainely Drummer

Sorry, Let Me Clarify

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Posts: 3018

(09/12/09 06:31:42)

Senior Member

Exaggerated Moeller...

curiousgeorge,

Great post, too bad that someone like Phil or Billy wasn't there to point out, even in private off camera that severe damage can result down the road.

When I said "exaggerated Moeller" it implied that he was doing at least something proper with his grip/stroke.

I was referencing the many videos I have seen where the stroke is done in slow motion in an exaggerated way,( the whipping motion) but it was a poor description..

I think crusher has nailed it :

in my opinion, it's an excess of vertical movement of the forearm, generated at the elbow, that is causing jay's wrists to describe such an exaggerated arch.

his stroke in general seems stylized and over the top, with basically too much motion in all parts of his body.

Exactly, the extreme arc of uncontrolled wrist movement in Jay Weinberg's stroke wouuld be analogous to the end of a bullwhip (no control) as opposed to the controlled arc of the bullwhip handle.

The control should be moved to the end of the arm/fingers from the middle.

Or maybe I am wrong again?

stixwallah

Wowie Zowie!

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Posts: 240

(09/12/09 08:18:09)

Regular Member

Holey Moley too!

Thank you all for going in to so much detail. This place is a boon to humanity!!

I think I am full hyperextending.

I tend to use my wrists and not really move my forearms too much. So I am probably doing something similar to Jay from the wrist but without the very exaggerated movements of the whole arm.

Do I understand right that it is better to incorporate the sideways motion of the forearm (ie the rotating the doorknob motion) than just whip forth from the wrist joint itself (my word, it is hard indeed to type about this stuff!)? Assuming matched grip.

This clip from Mr Gruber shows him demonstrating a stroke where he moves his forearm up and down and rotates his wrist so that at the top of the stroke his thumbnail appears to be pointing outwards and at the bottom of the stroke it is pointing inwards.

http://www.drummerworld.c...inic/Freddie_Gruber.html

Is this something?

www.joethedrummer.co.uk

billy ward

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Posts: 7901

(09/12/09 08:35:38)

Here's one overdub that I have shared with more than one professional and successful drummer: It is wise to FINISH your stroke (when the stick is hitting the drumhead or cymbal or..) with your wrist parallel to your arm. If you are spending time with the wrist pointed downward, then you are going to cramp and hurt - with eventual permanent damage. Cutting off blood flow is never a good idea.

billy ward

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Posts: 7902

(09/12/09 08:44:33)

In that vid, Freddie's writs are pointing downward, which I just warned against above. But I doubt he plays much in that position and certainly not with the power that most of the younger players display. he's right with his other stuff - maybe the pad was just too high and he didn't feel like adjusting it??

ambadextro

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Posts: 2035

(09/12/09 09:39:33)

Senior Member

"In that vid, Freddie's writs are pointing downward, which I just warned against above."--B.W.

I honestly didn't care for Mr. G.'s wrist positions...I like the Mike Mangini method of playing...the hand, the wrist and the arm are as straight a line as possible...with the exception of as Billy states, finishing the stroke...

amba

Willy Bard

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Posts: 147

(09/12/09 10:04:31)

Once again we have the not always comfortable combination of art and science. The demands we put on our bodies in order to play the drums doesn't always allow a completely stress-free experience. But it's only common sense to consider that the onset of pain during and/or after a performance indicates that something is wrong and should be addressed. Unfortunately many of us are willing to live with discomfort in order to play the way we want and some even view the subsequent injuries as bragging rights.

I've always felt that your body is going to tell you when something is out of whack and you just have to be aware enough to hear the message and clever enough to do something about it before it turns into a lifelong struggle such as the one Phil Collins is dealing with.

I watch that praying mantis sort of approach in the Gruber video and I'm shocked. That can't be right and if it isn't, why is being demonstrated in a drum video?

stixwallah

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Posts: 241

(09/12/09 10:37:49)

Regular Member

>It is wise to FINISH your stroke (when the stick is hitting the drumhead or cymbal or..) with your wrist parallel to your arm.

Ah. Makes sense. What about controlling how far back you allow the wrist to go when the stick rebounds?

www.joethedrummer.co.uk

billy ward

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Posts: 7903

(09/12/09 12:28:32)

Donn - I love the praying mantis hook! Yeah, that is silly. and yeah, MIke Mangini is right - and that was the way I was taught as a little kid. - Thank God! Joe, it seems to me that simply doing what is natural works regarding rebound. Some players are into discussing having the stick doing more work than your hands or arms. Dave Weckl andKeith Carlock both discuss this kind of thing (ex-students of Ed Soph - a GREAT player, and Freddie Gruber) I think it is simply about using common sense If you raise your wrist up right now over the keyboard, there is a place where it starts to feel tight. This is why we have elbows.

The important thing being placed under the microscope today is not having your wrists fully extended. it will start to hurt even without drumsticks. Try the "Praying Mantis" position for an hour - even without sticks, it is simply uncomfortable.

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