big time - "speed bumbs" - The DVD - The Billy Ward Stalking Society Discussion Board - BillyWard - Message Board

RSS
Email

0 Kudo

big time - "speed bumbs"

Author	Comment
java	big time - "speed bumbs"	Lead	[-]
Posts: 1 (05/23/09 00:37:17) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None Hey Billy, I just saw your Big Time DVD. At around 1h 13min you talk about practice playing and how one's ear is telling what to do. Then if it's a new thing, things might fall apart and you suggest to stop right there and learn it. That made me think yeah, that's what I'd also do. But what about live/studio performances? You just can't try, you have to pull of everything you do. This question made me register here so I hope you can share your thoughts on this one. I think the mistakes I might make usually come from the situation where there's a strong urge to pull off something I've never done before that my mind says "it's the best thing to do right now". I can usually handle the things I've never done that just come into my mind at the very moment (if it's within my limits in terms of speed, of course) which probably has made me take more risks. However, it's never as safe as playing the other thing that's not as perfect for the situation but what you almost certainly can pull of flawlessly because you've done it a million times before. Being prepared is a great thing but you can never anticipate everything. And if you're not Vinnie Colaiuta, the chances are, you just can't pull of everything you could possibly think of no matter how much you spend time practicing. example: Somebody calls you to play Rosanna in a live show on TV. You know you need to be great. You also know trying to capture the spirit of jeff porcaro and those ghosts in the groove plus live TV show pressure -- not an easy trick. A lot of guys would play a ghost-less version just to make sure they don't mess up. But it's still a disappointment for the musicians watching that show and you'd know you cheated and didn't play the song as well as you wanted. I guess you have to decide what to do by the level of certainty you have. But where to put the line? If you only play what you know would match the grid in pro tools, you'll kill all the creativity and musicality. On the other hand, people expect professional players to be perfect and flawless at all times (at least where I live). What do you think about this?
billy ward		#1	[-]
Posts: 7658 (05/23/09 07:13:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hi Java - thanks for joining in here. You wrote (excerpt), "my mind says "it's the best thing to do right now"" The mind is a terrible thing when it comes to creativity. Even scientists would admit that there are other factors beyond reason and thought when working for something new. If, in the practice room, you just simply don't think at all - and drop the sticks (just play three notes!), and THEN use your mind to add parts and make what happened more creative/more musical?.. then THAT is practice playing. You are then building upon something that is basically accidental. And practice playing will enable you to 1) have "public" accidents and escape 2) practice things that your ears asked you to learn - as opposed to "Rosanne" which some players might study simply because it is considered difficult. Personally, I avoid the "watcher" in my practice room or when I am performing/recording. My job is to inspire myself and get into that river of crfeativity, and then I will be able to inspire my fellow musicians - and THEN I can hopefully have an audience of listeners enjoy what happened. The last thing i want to happen is to force anyone (including myself) into listening to me struggle with some damned technical issue. I believe our instrument should bea fun house, and not a treadmill. I haven't time to write more about this, but hopefully some others from here wil engage you on this subject. And BTW, the whole practice playing concept is so difficult to explain!!! Once the light goes off, it is easier to do. I think I explain it better in Voices In My Head, simply because more time had passed where I attempted to discuss it in so many clinics and masterclasses. And now, whenever I have a chance again, I hope to explain it even better. Finally, about the TV show and rosanne.. I think you will be a far better musician if you can get that watcher to never come back again (your own watcher as well as the fictitious drummers you refer to) This is not so easy when you are playing a Modern Drummer Festival but most gigs aren't so hard emotionally. thanks.
Mainely Drummer	Rosanne, Rosanna, Roseanne Rosanna Danna	#2	[-]
Posts: 2717 (05/23/09 09:13:16) Senior Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	2) practice things that your ears asked you to learn - as opposed to "Rosanne" Finally, about the TV show and rosanne.. Thanks for the response Billy, and welcome to the forum java. Just some clarification: This Rosanne had a TV show, but not the one Billy is referencing in responding to java: Rosanna was probably on TV, but not on Rosanne's show, but had a song written about her by Toto: Rosanne Rosanna Danna was on TV, but not on the first Rosanne's show.. All three women can't share this song!
java		#3	[-]
Posts: 2 (05/23/09 12:25:24) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	haha. well yeah, I was talking about playing the toto song 'Rosanna' on tv. and how that might be, well, not the easiest thing to pull off. But now that I read back my text, it was probably not a good example because that's a choice you're gonna make beforehand. The thing I tried to describe earlier in my text was performing in front of an audience and then there's a moment when my ear tells me to do a new thing. Let's say, a great fill that would be just perfect in that moment. Just spontanuously. Should that fill be played or would it be better to chicken out? It's not practice playing that time because you can't afford to fail. And the decision needs to be made in a fraction of a second. Some drummers take no risks at all and always play safe. Some drummers just go crazy with lots of energy and play stuff that certainly entertain the majority of the audience. It's not nice to see grid-eagles around when you're trying to be creative. I'm sure a modern drummer festival gig must be the hardest one for your head because everyone will understand exactly what you're doing and it's going on DVD to be shipped internationally Anyway, it's great to see people respond so quickly! Thanks for that : )
Mainely Drummer	java	#4	[-]
Posts: 2718 (05/24/09 08:09:10) Senior Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	java: We like to goof (well at least I do, and I am pretty sure Billy loves to laugh) on things ocasionally. No disrespect intended, excellent question. I know exactly what you are talking about, the voices that say " The groove is so nice and everyone is smiling, I have a chance to showcase, why not pull out a complicated fill?" I think this stems from, or is triggered by, what I like to call "drummer under appreciation syndrome". This is for example, when the drummer just heard for the umpteenth time, the Joke: Q :"How can you tell if the stage is level? A: "Drool comes out both sides of the drummer's mouth" Everyone in the band has a collective laugh at our expense and we begin to feel disrespect. They don't know how long we study, practice, listen, and try to improve. The point, I guess, is that (Just speaking for myself), what your ear told you is a "great fill" may be your ego telling you to push out some extra notes. It can ruin the song, and tape will prove it. I hope I won't embarrass our host, but I have been loading some music that Billy has played on to the iPod, the Trio album, and the Bill Champlin record. (Get this album!) BW is killing the groove on a song like "The Truth" just hammering repetition, totally owning the snare sound. There are tasty cross stick patterns in the verse, and slurpy powerful snare in the chorus. On the Champlin record, Billy the fill monster (who is present for the Trio record) is absent. "No Place Left to Fall" (the song) is interesting because you expect BW to jump out at you , and he just keeps a pulse..no fills no fancy build ups. If BW decided to pull out some slurpy fast paradiddles to impress Bill Champlin, in that tune, he would fail, I can almost guarantee it. I would imagine that with enough practice playing ans experience grids, you stop hearing "the voice" in certain contexts. Put another way, just because you can do it, do you need to do it? Steve Ferrone, when asked in a Modern Drummer interview if he had a favorite fill, simply hit one rack tom once. To him, that said more than multiple notes ever could. Blah Blah, hopefully made some sense her! Last Edited By: Mainely Drummer 05/24/09 08:33:11. Edited 4 times.
Mainely Drummer	Thought I Would Add This Thread	#5	[-]
Posts: 2719 (05/24/09 08:28:53) Senior Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	java: I happened to come across this thread on another forum, notice the varying reponses. IMHO, you can read the skill level and maturity of the player (Not physical age) in the responses. The thread begins: zambizzi 06-19-2007, 07:32 PM I've been thinking about this lately - the importance and "proper place" for a drummer in a band. This is obviously different for drummers performing different styles...but overall, I'm trying to gauge where I'd like my place to be in a band that I settle in with. I've played w/ several folks over the last few months...my first time playing w/ anyone about 5 mo. ago. I've noticed that some people want the drummer to be simple, background noise...no thrills, no frills, no FILLS...just a bottom fill-in to keep simple time. Naturally, I want to play what fits the music and not "over-play"...it's obnoxious and doesn't serve to make the music better...the music just suffers overall. As much as I love drummers like Peart and Beauford...I feel their parts are over-played and a little too busy. However, there are under-players as well...I'm sure we could name dozens on both sides. What I'm definitely NOT interested in, is under-playing. Notice the contrast in these responses: Well, I guess the question you need to ask youself is, do you want to work or do you want to play? If you want work, a lot of times you will just be asked to "fill out the bottom end" as you said. But if you just want to play to play, you can jam all you want and play as many notes as you want and put fills wherever you see fit, thats totally your choice. And you can of course do both, but you have to be willing to play those parts which Im gathering you see as insgnificant, maybe even not worth your time. Not long ago I found something out. If youre bored with a part, you sound bored with the part, its oozing out of your playing, and whatta you know, either youre fired or they just dont call you back again. You have to be in love with every single note you play, you have to be riveted by every strike of the hi-hat and every kick of the bass. You have to really enjoy what you are doing. This can be hard sometimes though, it sounded like it wouldve been tough for you in that folk band so maybe it is best that you didnt take the gig. I dunno, thats just my take on the situation though and some generalities Ive found to be true in my experience Versus: ledzepjb 06-19-2007, 09:14 PM I say srew the people that want''backround rythim''(i didnt spell that right), i play what i want and how i want, i play what i feel and how i feel, of course theres a limit and sometimes people ''over play'' but if you know when to stop then play that way. If your band only wants you to play simple stuff and you dont want to, then your not with the right people. So bacicaly, do what feels right for you, not for the others. Dont play like that guy from CCR, its sooo boringg I can almost guarantee who is the better drummer.. More here. Last Edited By: Mainely Drummer 05/24/09 08:31:25. Edited 1 times.
curiousgeorge		#6	[-]
Posts: 90 (05/24/09 10:38:54) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	<b> Just spontaneously. Should that fill be played or would it be better to chicken out? </b> <br> IMHO, it would really depend on the situation, but all other things being equal, if you hear the fill, then you know how to play it. The ears CAN make decisions as to what you play, and if you let them, they will give the correct orders. In other words, if you can hear it you can play it correctly. The trick is developing the skills to trust yourself. This is easier said than done, because there are lots of other voices that think they know better (they usually don't, unless one of them is privy to marching orders from the guy who cuts your paycheck!) ... (its also easy enough to trick yourself into thinking that you are playing from the ear when you are playing from your ego, via your ears - a step up, but not the same thing!) A certain amount of editing is a good thing, too. Its easy to go overboard, or to hear a 'great fill' that gets in someone's way. <br><br> <i>Who says you an't afford to fail? </i> <B>If</b> you flub a fill, nobody is gonna notice, or care if they do. Maybe if you have all your parts written out before hand, but then thats not the creative situation you are describing. Mistakes happen, everyone knows it. Only @ssh0les will get too uptight about them, and that might be a situation that you dont wanna be in anyway! <b>there is a video of Steve Gadd totally mucking up the form on a Eric Clapton live DVD show - he does a gian fill to lead the band in - but they don't come in - Clapton looks back at him and laughs, and then a moment later - the same giant fill and the band actually comes in. Another guy to check out in terms of just following his instincts is Thomas Prigden. That guy puts his whole being behind every note he plays. They are not always "good notes", but he makes them the right notes. Its better to be wrong and confident than right and timid. <br><BR> As far as creativity goes, from a scientists point of view, we only get information 1 way - through our senses. This sensory information is then processed. We isolate different aspects of what is around us and we associate these things. We use our experience to create mental models and maps of the world around us, and those maps and models inform further experience. <br><br> As much as it seems like something or someone "comes out of nowhere", creativity is really a rational response to someone's particular situation. They may be - and probably are - "thinking outside of the box", but that often-used phrase simply means that you don't go<b>only</b> by past experience - that you actually think about your current situation. People do this all the time, but come up with solutions that are already 'in the box' ... being creative does not mean doing something nobody has ever done before, nor does it mean playing a different fill everytime anymore than it means playing the same fill everytime. <br><BR> ... Tony Williams is a good example of someone not coming out of nowhere. His style is a natural extention of his teacher's (Alan Dawson), whose style is, IMHO, defined by lyrically using rudiments, with some favorites. Just like evolution, there are links in creativity, even if they are missing. There is nothing magical or mystical about creativity. It is a natural extention of our selves interacting with our environment. Thinking otherwise will lead to a whole lot of needless pressure on yourself, and ironically stifle creativity.
aaroncushing		#7	[-]
Posts: 887 (05/25/09 04:25:38) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	the voices that say " The groove is so nice and everyone is smiling, I have a chance to showcase, why not pull out a complicated fill?" For me, those voices say "the groove is so nice and everyone is smiling, I have a chance to showcase, why not remind everybody where ONE is with a good spank on the big-ass Wuhan china right there..." Currently I'm training myself to think "why did I just hit that? Was it really necessary for the song?" What I really need to do is flip that around into more of a pre-thought of "I might go to the china...would it be right?" I suppose the easy road is to just leave the cymbal at home, but sometimes that trashcan lid is just the right sound.
llabarge		#8	[-]
Posts: 385 (05/25/09 05:34:29) Senior Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	It looks like the question is, "I hear something, and it has its place. Do I have the chops to pull it off?" It seems like the only way I'd know that answer is if I had done similar things successfully. It's all got to be in support of the music. I asked a very well regarded jazz player what he thought about when he was playing. He said "I don't think at all." Hmmmm "Spank the Wuhan, Spank the Wuhan" ( The Clash)
debbie		#9	[-]
Posts: 228 (05/25/09 21:17:03) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	wow, i am really at a loss for words [a rarity!] on this topic, coz it's so not my expertise. but it's something i've thought about, too. my first thought was--if i had to think about if a fill was right; if i had to question something, or have a moment of mental hesitation--then i probably shouldn't do it. i do believe one goal as a drummer is to be able to take risks with one's playing [something i'm not really capable of just yet, but am really working on, in terms of not thinking too, too much], but i also tend to not like surprises at gigs. i remember this real shmoe bassist i was playing with started whipping out this thumb-slapping funk riff in the middle of a metal gig, for crap's sake. i couldn't believe it! very bad, and very disrespectful. but then there are those situations where you really do try something you hadn't planned, and it works really well and sounds really good. i think this has happened to me twice. i felt ashamed afterward for doing it, because if it wouldn't have gone over well, i would've been in hot water. but it felt nice to do it and have it all go right. my teacher and i are working a lot on soloing and trading fours, and one thing he tells me is to have a general idea of what i'd like to do next. pick a phrase or a sticking and set myself up for the first 2 bars--have a general gameplan. then try to add to that and think of the different variations that might come from that, and practice getting those in. i think if you have a general gameplan for something, then you have some options, and then it makes the possibility of doing something off the cuff more manageable and a little less risky. if you have the general outline of what you can or want to play in the given musical space, then you likely have different ways in which you can do it. somehow, having that 'what if' knowledge, and those options, feels like the right way to approach something like this. have you ever heard of double dutch? it's a jump roping game. two ropes are swinging in opposite directions and you have to jump in. usually there's another person already inside the ropes. so it takes some pretty fancy footwork to not get tangled in the ropes or step on the other person. but there's lots of footwork combinations you can make. this is the general idea i'm putting forth--just having those different combinations available to you [through practice], so that when the time comes to jump in, chances are pretty good you won't get tangled in the ropes. and welcome to the forum, by the way!
Scott Grant	Comfort	#10	[-]
Posts: 195 (05/25/09 22:18:49) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The practice playing is great for this and as you get out live, you may get nervous about a fill or trying something, but......... I find that I become more adventurous the more I play live. You have to have a level of comfort being on stage. This month I'm starting to play a scheduled 4 nights a week through September with different projects. About 2 weeks in I bet ( because this always happens ), I'll be trying anything because I will feel comfortable behind the wheel. I personally love that feeling. The other great thing I find is when I don't really remember what happened the night of the gig. Usually, that indicates a great night because I tend to only remember the crap. I then listen back and hear something........... oh that was neat, I don't remember doing that............ I think this indicates that I was in the moment and things tended to take care of themselves. Guess I'm saying go to jams, play with and in-front of as many people as possible and you will start to pull things off magically, things you never thought you could
Mainely Drummer	Debbie!	#11	[-]
Posts: 2724 (05/26/09 05:53:04) Senior Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hall Of Fame Quote: i remember this real shmoe bassist i was playing with started whipping out this thumb-slapping funk riff in the middle of a metal gig, for crap's sake. Substitute as applicable (ie: "real shmoe guitarist, "real shmoe sound man", real shmoe club owner), shake lightly and stir.. Last Edited By: Mainely Drummer 05/26/09 05:55:11. Edited 1 times.
aaroncushing		#12	[-]
Posts: 888 (05/26/09 07:11:06) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hall Of Fame Quote: i remember this real shmoe bassist i was playing with started whipping out this thumb-slapping funk riff in the middle of a metal gig, for crap's sake. Substitute as applicable (ie: "real shmoe guitarist, "real shmoe sound man", real shmoe club owner), shake lightly and stir.. Also substitute "drummer spanking a Wuhan in the middle of "Wonderful Tonight"

<< Previous Topic Next Topic >>

Yuku free message boards

big time - "speed bumbs"

big time - "speed bumbs"

Quick Reply