Drum Recording/Phase

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SilentSelfDefense	Drum Recording/Phase	Lead	[-]
Posts: 1 (12/18/08 00:37:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : phase Hello everyone... How on earth are "pro" CD's so absolutely in phase!?! I've read a lot on phase and have been recording for about 8 years so I think I have a handle on things...but apparently not. I know my set up will not sound better than a mega studio and a $834892130.00 budget, and I'm over that...but I'd like to think I could at least get the phase as good. Is there something I'm missing? I know about measuring OH's, and lining up tracks to be even more in phase, and blah blah...but still not even close. Any help would be much appreciated and make me not want to set fire to phase meters
johncurry		#1	[-]
Posts: 169 (12/18/08 07:46:13) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	It's hard to say without knowing more about how you are recording. My first question is are you sure it's a phase problem? I would courageously say it should be possible for you to sound as good or better than some bazillion dollar studios. Mostly because you have more time dial in a sound and tune/tweak to the room than someone on a time crunched 2 hour session. When I run into a phase problem, I start removing mic's. It seems I get a better sound with a simpler mic setup and good isolation. I'm currently loving a 4 mic setup with 2 large diaphragm condensers (extreme left and right) a SM81 mono overhead (center) and a kick mic. I'm getting a good overall sound with that and I make sure it's completely dialed in and then perhaps I may add an additional close mic for snare or the individual toms if I need some more attack, but those mics are blended in very tenderly. I would say first off.. identify your own assumptions about what's going on and then challenge them individually. I'll often find a problem related to something that I think is a given. Hope that helps -john http://www.drumstudio.org Subscribe to the Drum Studio Blog john at drumstudio dot org ---
SilentSelfDefense		#2	[-]
Posts: 2 (12/18/08 08:58:53) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I am mostly recording metal and numetal bands so it's a lot of close micing. I'm usually throwing up around 12 mics or so depending on the kit and style. I noticed this when I soloed out my OHs and threw a phase meter on the master. They're not out 180, and I can't hear the phasing really, but they're pretty out of phase and there is definately something lost in mono. As a comparison I compared my stuff to lamb of god's drums via there sacrament prdocuer edition cd which has stems of all of the instruments. I loaded up there drums, threw n a phase meter, and it's almost always in Perfect phase. I know there's a lot of sampling on metal records, but I'm using a lot of samples on my metal mixes also. My general OHs are either a AT 4050 pair or SM81 pair depending on how I'm doing things. I usually use a split stereo method for metal, but the mics are measured from the snare and kick to assure they are equi distant and theoretically in phase. Past that, I don't know what would cause such a difference.
billy ward	Hi silent!	#3	[-]
Posts: 6880 (12/18/08 14:00:58) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	thanks for joining up - Moving tracks to align them doesn't necessarily fix phase from what I understand - I like to leave things where they are usually - but then again, I'm not recording metal music... If you are using a lot of mics, a little labs IBP (or four of 'em) would be VERY useful. check it out here: http://www.mercenaryaudio.com/littlelabs.html
JeepnDrummer		#4	[-]
Posts: 223 (12/19/08 03:53:11) Senior Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Phase is a function of time and frequency. Is there anything reflective (sound-wise) near one OH, but not the other? Is one mic connected to muliple cables while the the other is connected to one? Is there anything in the signal chain that's different for one mic? Is this only happening with the OHs? Are you observing the 3-1 rule? Have you set up the OHs in an X-Y configuration to minimize phase shift? Are you using the same model OHs? Have you tried using just one instead of two? Yeah, I know you'll lose the stereo effect. Comb filtering and/or the summation of some in-phase signals due to phase shift is audable and not desired. So, if your tracks sound fine I wouldn't worry about it. Some in the biz even suggest that a small amount can be beneficial to establishing a sound stage. As an aside ... while poking around the Intra-webby, I found it amazing that most people think phase and polarity are the same thing.
Earldrum		#5	[-]
Posts: 88 (12/22/08 07:54:47) Regular Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	billy ward wrote: thanks for joining up - Moving tracks to align them doesn't necessarily fix phase from what I understand - I like to leave things where they are usually - but then again, I'm not recording metal music... If you are using a lot of mics, a little labs IBP (or four of 'em) would be VERY useful. check it out here: http://www.mercenaryaudio.com/littlelabs.html Hi Billy & Silent ... Check out the Universal Audio UAD version of the Little Labs IBP. http://www.uaudio.com/pro...s/software/ibp/index.html Every plugin that I have used by UA is awesome. The cost of the Little Labs IBP is $99, which is much cheaper than the hardware version. I believe if you had to buy a UAD card and the plugin it would be cheaper than the hardware version of this effect. Merry Christmas, Earl http://www.freewebs.com/sanctuarysound/ http://www.myspace.com/sanctuarysoundstudios http://www.myspace.com/drstephaniebennett http://www.freewebs.com/drummersforjesuswestpalmbeach/ http://www.myspace.com/drummersforjesuswestpalmbeachchapter
jdub		#6	[-]
Posts: 3 (06/02/09 10:02:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I'm sure if I did a search on these forums, I'd find a link to what I'm about to post... The OP noticed his OH mic's were out of phase. I recommend trying the Recorderman method: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiFOD1EeKhQ after you have this together, add your close mics one at a time, checking your bottom end, as this may be your most noticeable sign of phase issues.
billy ward		#7	[-]
Posts: 7679 (06/02/09 13:49:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Well, before all of these plug-ins, a great engineer simply keeps checking for phase by turning signal to mono and making sure the timbre doesn't change. If it does, you move the mic.
johncurry	adding link	#8	[-]
Posts: 447 (06/02/09 13:56:31) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiFOD1EeKhQ -john http://www.drumstudio.org Subscribe to the Drum Studio Blog john at drumstudio dot org --- Last Edited By: johncurry 06/02/09 13:58:48. Edited 1 times.
JeepnDrummer		#9	[-]
Posts: 338 (06/02/09 14:06:21) Senior Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	billy ward wrote: Well, before all of these plug-ins, a great engineer simply keeps checking for phase by turning signal to mono and making sure the timbre doesn't change. If it does, you move the mic. I love it! Sometimes we over-complicate things.
billy ward		#10	[-]
Posts: 7682 (06/02/09 15:44:13) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	That said, the Litle Labs ibp phase jobby is AWESOME! I had one for a while and then traded it for a mic. But I miss it. You can put mics anywhere and just move the knob until it sounds good. (of course many people won't hear a difference from setting to another, but it is an incredible tool for the rughtless who just want to get to the recording phase and not spend a lot of time in set up. Also - phasea reverse only goes so far (which is why you have to move the mic) but the ibp enables to you to hit all the in-between places... very cool tool. And yeah - those old records sound pretty good. The engineers actually UNDERSTOOD and knew the science of engineering. Go figure.
SilentSelfDefense	update	#11	[-]
Posts: 7 (06/04/09 12:14:50) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Actually, I found my issue.... The room & the mics. I built my studio with a live end/dead end kind of scenario and was tracking in the live side. The live side is really live. Sounds awesome for my snare drum. However...I have to get some diffusors or dampen a little because the phase in that end of the room is rough. I moved everything to the dead side, made some gobo's to box it off some more (leaving a little of the live side in...it's not 100% dead)....and the difference was immediate. The other issue was an unmatched pair of AT 4050's. I didn't even realize that one of them is apparently an updated model with a slightly different EQ curve and apparently some other mods I'm not aware of at present. I used a pair of matched SM81's and it improved it A LOT. Also, this might be ridiculous...but I've found that if I use a monster cable and a mogami cable...not as tight as two mogami....exact same positions, exact everything. Some of the differences are subtle, and depending on the project, I'll use mismatched OH's. This obsession about phase was for one of these new fangled hardcore/grindcore/blastbeat/whatever-core bands where everything needs to be TIGHT. For that kind of music it's more about mechanics than soul (for the instruments at least).
billy ward		#12	[-]
Posts: 7691 (06/04/09 14:46:58) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Great stuff, silent! Keep us in touch with your future work. Regarding the mismatched mics. This is why I love the Shure mics - for the money, they are very very consistent. And it is also why I adore Schoeps mics. When those capsules are matched... they are MATCHED.

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